Believers: Think about all the things you would do if you were a god…

wpid-wp-1427731376780

Advertisements
Image | This entry was posted in Catholicism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Jehovah's Witness, Judaism, Mormonism, Religion. Bookmark the permalink.

9 Responses to Believers: Think about all the things you would do if you were a god…

  1. Bad Wolf says:

    The answer to that is simpler than you think, “why would God help those who don’t want Him to help?”… … WOW I’ve heard Born-Againers say some pretty cruel, hateful, unimaginably evil things before, but this tops them all…

  2. Bad Wolf says:

    Powerful.

  3. john407640 says:

    As a believer I have thought about your query, realizing that I am not all that good, I would probably have a harder time dealing with the insubordination of non believers constantly challenging me, that said, I would say to all those people asking me why I allow suffering, “Why do you?”

    • Wayne says:

      Because I can’t turn a desert green again and allow crops to grow and life to fourish? (an all powerful god could)
      Because I can’t make it rain to end a drought and famine? (an all powerful god could)
      Because I can’t make it stop raining to prevent a catastrophic flood? (an all powerful god could)
      Because I can’t stop an earthquake killing thousands of innocents and destroying the lives of countless others? (an all powerful god could)
      Because I can’t stop a tsunami slamming into a coast, killing thousands and destrpying the lives of countless others? (an all powerful god could)

      Maybe you need to think for a bit longer before you use a complete non-argument John 🙂

      • john407640 says:

        Thanks for replying, please forgive my lack of specificity, your reply focuses on natural disasters or as some call them “acts of God” and you’re right you can’t stop the rain, start the rain, hold back earthquakes or tsunamis.
        My comment is about what you can do.
        What you can do is help the people suffering from the after effects of these events,
        You can feed the hungry,
        You can clothe those in need,
        You can open your wallet and give,
        You can be there when something happens to help ease the pain, be a part of the search parties looking for the lost,
        You can use your influence online to spread messages of hope (even if you don’t believe) and ask your followers to help you do something, instead of spreading messages of sarcasm, anti-religion remarks and dare I say it, hate.
        You can’t stop suffering, you can ease it.
        That said, this conversation is based on the implication of the existence of God, I am assuming that you are of the opinion that God doesn’t exist, based on your comments.
        For the sake of this argument, let’s assume He exists, if He does then we would have to look at what He said and He said that He designed us to bring glory to Him. How would we do that? Not by shaking our fist at Him every time we run into suffering, but by being the one to ease the suffering when it does happen.
        Bring Him glory not by questioning Him, but by being obedient.
        He told us to feed the hungry, if we all did this, not one person on the planet would suffer from hunger.
        He told us to care for orphans and widows, if we all did this, children would not die in the streets.
        I could go on but, like I said the original argument implies that God exists, that God does nothing to help those in need and that I worship this God.
        You are wrong, God does not do nothing, He is present in every thing that happens, He is suffering right beside those who suffer, He suffered on the cross to redeem us.
        So why doesn’t He stop it?
        He does end suffering, just not in this life (Remember we are assuming God does exist) God did not say he would ever do away with suffering, trials, tribulations and the like in this life. He said trust in Him in this life and He would wipe away every tear when we meet Him face to face.
        He also never said that He wouldn’t allow suffering, suffering creates character, without suffering there is no compassion, and suffering re-alligns our focus.
        So if we refuse to define God as good because He allows suffering, then every single one of us is not good either because we allow it as well.
        So yes, I worship God, who allows suffering.
        Remember that the existence of suffering does not prove the absence of God.
        I look forward to your reply.

      • Wayne says:

        I would still find it absolutely impossible to worship a being who made someone’s entire life an utter misery just so that other people have someone to help and show compassion for.
        If god decided to try to give me ‘character’ by destroying my home and killing my family and friends then I absolutely do NOT want to meet him as I’m certain we won’t be getting along.

        “acts of God” – I find it interesting that you put this in quotes, as though this is not what they are. Personally, I do not believe that they are because, as you rightly suspect, I am a non-believer. However, you as a believer must accept them as acts of god; deliberate acts. He either caused them to happen (a malicious act) or knew that they would happen (due to natural causes on a planet he designed and built) and did nothing to prevent it (an uncaring act) just so that people could develop ‘character’ and other people would be able to feel good about themselves because they would have someone to help thus bringing ‘glory’ to him (the implication of this is that said god is selfish and needy? Surely a truly caring god would do what is best for his creation rather than create them simply to use as pawns for his own advancement and self fulfilment?)

        Many of the things you say we should be doing I personally do (I accept that many don’t) – I give what I can in terms of time and money to help ‘ease the suffering’ of others. However I do this simply because it is the right thing to do rather than in the name of a god who, in your belief, caused this suffering in the first place.

      • john407640 says:

        The amount of suffering that one can take is relative to the individual, you say that you couldn’t worship Him if He made someone’s life utterly miserable, has He made YOUR life miserable?
        If I look at the way people live in Latin America I would probably say I see a lot of suffering, they don’t think it is, most of them have enough food and enough water and they have a roof over their head, they would think that suffering would lool like living in a third world country that’s in a cold climate would be suffering.
        So do you think that God should end all suffering? Of every kind? Would you worship Him then? I don’t think that you would, because your free will would be gone, because some of our own choices lead to suffering.
        So I don’t think it’s suffering that keeps you from considering God, I think it’s you.
        Let me know what you think.
        Thanks

      • Wayne says:

        I agree, it is ABSOLUTELY me that keeps me from considering God. The suffering part is just a small mark on a long list of things that, to me, make the idea of an all powerful, benevolent god almost laughable.
        Without meaning to get personal I find it very hard to understand how any rational thinking person can genuinely believe. How they can look at the world and think ‘this was specifically designed for humans by a loving being who is looking after us’. The vast majority of the earth is hostile to human life, many of the parts that can be inhabited are dangerous (and I don’t mean getting mugged dangerous I mean earthquakes and erupting volcanoes dangerous; naturally dangerous).
        If you expand that world to a universal view it begins to make even less sense – Billions and billions of galaxies all containing billions and billions of stars surrounded by countless planets of all types.

        My life has never been ‘miserable’ in the way we are talking here – In the way depicted in the picture that started this discussion.
        I have been down to the point where I almost lost everything, a very low ebb indeed but came through the other side (god was not required) and am now in a good place again.
        You mention people in Latin America and say that they wouldn’t consider themselves as suffering – I agree.
        What you have done there is take an example of people who have a different style of life, and consequently a different outlook, than the ‘western’ norm. Just because someone doesn’t have every luxury doesn’t mean they are suffering. However, those third world countries who do not have water, who do not have food and who do not have a roof over their head ARE suffering.

        You have answered rather like a politcian and very much like every religious person I have ever debated with by picking one small point of what I wrote and then ignoring the awkward bit and hoping it goes away.
        I would very much like your thoughts on those acts of god that bring down ruin on entire communities and even countries:
        The recent Nepal earthquake?
        The Haiti earthquake in 2010?
        The Asian Tsunami in 2004?

        That list could go on and on – All acts of god, natural disasters that brought death and destruction to hundreds of thousands of people.
        Just to develop people’s ‘character’ so that others can bring god glory?

        I just don’t get it.

      • john407640 says:

        You are right when you say that I just chose one thing out of your statement, not because I was hoping the rest of it would go away, I don’t want it to go away, I approached you, remember, but because I wasn’t sure how to respond.
        I had typed and retyped my reply three times, because I didn’t want to sound like a politician or like the typical religious person reply.

        I do consider myself a rational person, you don’t have to dismiss God to be rational, on the contrary believers often consider the un-believer irrational, the same way both sides think the other side is ignorant. The most intelligent persons on both sides of this debate will argue that the other simply cannot see the truth.
        This planet does have many areas that are hostile to human life there is no doubt about that, but there is life their even if not human, the areas that you say can be inhabited perhaps are not supposed to be inhabited, I think that some parts of this planet are not supposed to be inhabited by humans. That goes back to humans being the ones that destroy everything. Even if we could live somewhere does not mean we should, especially if it’s hostile to us.
        To me this points to a designer not away from one, the “designer” made this planet for life, all life, some of it should be left untouched by human hands so that nature can thrive and therefore support the human way of life.

        Back on topic, the disasters that cause death and destruction are one of the reasons that you find the idea of God “laughable.”
        Let’s play this game of “let’s pretend God exists” again, if He exists and everything He told us is true, there really is a heaven and there really is a hell, then the death and destruction that you speak of like the Nepal earthquake and the Haiti earthquake, and the tsunamis and hurricanes and volcano eruptions only bring the end of suffering, for the believer this is the beginning of forever without suffering, after all, we all leave this world and either go to heaven or hell.
        For those that survive these events the suffering continues only while they are here in this life, they know that the loved ones they lost have no more suffering to worry about, either they are in heaven with God, or for non-believers who believe they are just simply gone, either way their suffering is over and this brings relief to those left behind.
        For the Christian, hard times are not looked at as suffering, they are looked at as a waiting period, their may be physical pain now, but soon it will end and then we go home.

        From the outside looking in suffering seems terrible, and it is, but for Christians, we don’t call it suffering, we see God’s work in everything that happens, if and when we suffer we go through the same things you would, anger, denial, sadness, we might even question Him, but given enough time we learn why we had to go through what we went through, we come to see the greater plan at work and it’s not necessarily always about character, sometimes much greater work is at play that we may never know, that is where our faith comes in, we trust in Him, no matter what.

        Quick story to show how sometimes current suffering leads to even greater joy.
        Before I had children of my own my wife and I were foster parents, we accepted into our home a one day old baby addicted to crack, we fell in love with him, he suffered during his first three months as he spent every night crying and waiting for the fix that his body was used to, thanks to his biological mother. We stood by him during that time, exhausted and unsure of what to do we just held him and helped him through it, eventually he overcame the addiction and begun to thrive as a three month old normal child, actually probably above average in everything he did, he walked earlier than most kids, he talked earlier than most, for all intents and purposes we were his parents. We drafted a plan to adopt him, and everything was going well and it looked like he was ours, until a biological relative stepped forward and said they wanted him. He was eighteen months old when lost him, we were devastated, and now we were suffering. Yes we were angry at the agency and at God, but as a result we decided to try and have our own children, and now seven years later I have two awesome little boys of my own, this would not have happened had we not lost custody of that first little boy, now he is with family and happy and so are we.

        So now if God exists and Christians aren’t really suffering, we’re waiting. Why do un-believers suffer? The answer to that is simpler than you think, “why would God help those who don’t want Him to help?”
        “If God is all powerful and all loving then why does He let even those who don’t believe to suffer, that doesn’t sound like love.” Actually it does, He is not going to force His ways on you, if you make a conscious decision to move away from Him or reject Him entirely then He is going to allow you your free will, furthermore if your decisions lead to suffering He is going to respect your decision and allow the consequences of your decisions to happen.
        The same way I would allow my four year old son to suffer the consequences of running around in the house after I’ve told him not to, sooner or later he’s going to hurt himself, then and only then will he fully understand why I told him not to run in the house.

        Suffering happens and it’s awful, but if God took away all the suffering that is outside of our control we would not be living in a broken world, which is what this planet is, we would be living in another version of heaven that allows the consequences of sin but not the suffering due to natural causes. What if some of these natural disasters are our fault? Science talks about climate change, isn’t this due to what humans did? The pollution that we’ve caused? So which disasters are “acts of God” and which ones are cause and effect of You are right when you say that I just chose one thing out of your statement, not because I was hoping the rest of it would go away, I don’t want it to go away, I approached you, remember, but because I wasn’t sure how to respond.
        I had typed and retyped my reply three times, because I didn’t want to sound like a politician or like the typical religious person reply.

        I do consider myself a rational person, you don’t have to dismiss God to be rational, on the contrary believers often consider the un-believer irrational, the same way both sides think the other side is ignorant. The most intelligent persons on both sides of this debate will argue that the other simply cannot see the truth.
        This planet does have many areas that are hostile to human life there is no doubt about that, but there is life their even if not human, the areas that you say can be inhabited perhaps are not supposed to be inhabited, I think that some parts of this planet are not supposed to be inhabited by humans. That goes back to humans being the ones that destroy everything. Even if we could live somewhere does not mean we should, especially if it’s hostile to us.
        To me this points to a designer not away from one, the “designer” made this planet for life, all life, some of it should be left untouched by human hands so that nature can thrive and therefore support the human way of life.

        Back on topic, the disasters that cause death and destruction are one of the reasons that you find the idea of God “laughable.”
        Let’s play this game of “let’s pretend God exists” again, if He exists and everything He told us is true, there really is a heaven and there really is a hell, then the death and destruction that you speak of like the Nepal earthquake and the Haiti earthquake, and the tsunamis and hurricanes and volcano eruptions only bring the end of suffering, for the believer this is the beginning of forever without suffering, after all, we all leave this world and either go to heaven or hell.
        For those that survive these events the suffering continues only while they are here in this life, they know that the loved ones they lost have no more suffering to worry about, either they are in heaven with God, or for non-believers who believe they are just simply gone, either way their suffering is over and this brings relief to those left behind.
        For the Christian, hard times are not looked at as suffering, they are looked at as a waiting period, their may be physical pain now, but soon it will end and then we go home.

        From the outside looking in suffering seems terrible, and it is, but for Christians, we don’t call it suffering, we see God’s work in everything that happens, if and when we suffer we go through the same things you would, anger, denial, sadness, we might even question Him, but given enough time we learn why we had to go through what we went through, we come to see the greater plan at work and it’s not necessarily always about character, sometimes much greater work is at play that we may never know, that is where our faith comes in, we trust in Him, no matter what.

        Quick story to show how sometimes current suffering leads to even greater joy.
        Before I had children of my own my wife and I were foster parents, we accepted into our home a one day old baby addicted to crack, we fell in love with him, he suffered during his first three months as he spent every night crying and waiting for the fix that his body was used to, thanks to his biological mother. We stood by him during that time, exhausted and unsure of what to do we just held him and helped him through it, eventually he overcame the addiction and begun to thrive as a three month old normal child, actually probably above average in everything he did, he walked earlier than most kids, he talked earlier than most, for all intents and purposes we were his parents. We drafted a plan to adopt him, and everything was going well and it looked like he was ours, until a biological relative stepped forward and said they wanted him. He was eighteen months old when lost him, we were devastated, and now we were suffering. Yes we were angry at the agency and at God, but as a result we decided to try and have our own children, and now seven years later I have two awesome little boys of my own, this would not have happened had we not lost custody of that first little boy, now he is with family and happy and so are we.

        So now if God exists and Christians aren’t really suffering, we’re waiting. Why do un-believers suffer? The answer to that is simpler than you think, “why would God help those who don’t want Him to help?”
        “If God is all powerful and all loving then why does He let even those who don’t believe to suffer, that doesn’t sound like love.” Actually it does, He is not going to force His ways on you, if you make a conscious decision to move away from Him or reject Him entirely then He is going to allow you your free will, furthermore if your decisions lead to suffering He is going to respect your decision and allow the consequences of your decisions to happen.
        The same way I would allow my four year old son to suffer the consequences of running around in the house after I’ve told him not to, sooner or later he’s going to hurt himself, then and only then will he fully understand why I told him not to run in the house.

        Suffering happens and it’s awful, but if God took away all the suffering that is outside of our control we would not be living in a broken world, which is what this planet is, we would be living in another version of heaven that allows the consequences of sin but not the suffering due to natural causes. What if some of these natural disasters are our fault? Science talks about climate change, isn’t this due to what humans did? The pollution that we’ve caused? So which disasters are “acts of God” and which ones are cause and effect of humans?

What you think about this?

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s